Post by lordlee on Nov 24, 2006 18:27:21 GMT
First off, it might be a good idea not to name it as-if-it-was-in-succession
Reason being is the publisher doesnt like this... theyve shut down other mod projects for naming it as such... Also it gets terriblly confusing if a new ee were to come out...
Ok now to the purpose of this post: Balance
Unless this mod is going to be purely campaign-ish /skinned/sound-modded etc... we probably need a thread.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A few Common problems I think we should address:
--Mass Spamming of Unique Units
--RPS lack of significant counters
--Aweful Learning Curve
--Units build a little too slow
--Rescources gather too fast
--Unit Spam and lack of individual personality in the units
--(Post if you have another Ill edit)
================================
Proposed solutions
*UU spamming (We want to keep thier special attributes, but at the same time solve it.)
--Move Unique Units to temples
--Make Cost/Buildtimes significantly higher than normal units
--Limit Buildings to 1 per unit per territory. (so 3 barracks, 2 stables and workshop)
--Move UU's up one or two epochs
note: Personally I like 1-3.
================================
*RPS structure
note: Personally I am heavily influenced by ee and aoe and will suggest my idea. If there is another please mention and I will add it.
--ee1/aoe fuse: The old unit triangles, but horses and siege are special units...
So: Spear (slow powerhouse...) > sword (fast and weak) > Arrow (ranged, normal speed/health) > Spear
Logic behind it: Arrow kills spear before it reaches the arrow (heavy armour). Spear Kills anything melee (including horses) because of its heavy armour protects it from damage. The swords are quick and can reach the archers before they can kill them.
Siege much like R&F and onagers from aoe devestate massed infantries, of course swords have a good chance of killing siege in staggared formation (thier quickness and being spread out)... Im going for the intuitive approach... fast units can kill slow units who are good at ranged.
Now ballista, historically, is excellent at accuracy while trebuchets/catapults were highly inaccurate.. i.e. even if you look at the models you have scorpions who are shooting bolts and not rocks... ballista = strong highly damaging, catapult = low damage huge area.
Cavalry is uniquely devestating like siege it obliderates infantry, and like siege has a huge weakness in one class, pike.
So you could say: Siege>Infantry, except swords.
and: Cavalry>Infantry, except pikes.
obviously the final rps is heavy Cavalry> Heavy Siege
ballista > heavy cavalry, light horse isnt terribly wonderful against siege at all...
The rps strength i recommend is 3v1. except siege and horses who are ultra powerful 2 to 3 times as powerful.
A note and address on Buildtimes:
--One thing that irritated me immediately was buildtimes... in aoe buildtimes were 15 seconds!! thats well over HALF the current which is 37... So my proposal is Strengthened cavalry (rps = 6-7 to 1)... we make cits and infantry build 15 seconds and leave cavlary and arty. basically infantry is a flood of units... youll face hundreds of these buggers and the only "flood control" is cavalry and siege..
=====================================
*Intuitively
--I think your hit with too much too quickly and dont get a feel for each class. a good solution to this is to give it in segments.
--Infantry introed in Epoch I
--Cavalry introed in Epoch II
--Siege introed in Epoch III
Both aoe and ee had this format (crudely at least), but when your hit with 9 military units immediately its a bit overwhelming... I remember starting simple in the darkage in aoe with one unit and cits etc... then they unlocked the basics, then they broke lose with every major unit, and finally with critical specialty units.
========================
Rescources gather a bit too fast. this is a minor point. the idea is to make tech cost rescources... I think the basic rescources should be halved and include special gathering for special rescources....
Food - patches (faster... .75), infinite patch/farming (normal .5), hunting/fishing (fastest 1) [note: this is rescource per second]
Wood - Obviously there is a lot of wood on the map. but wood isnt too destructable i recommend reducing it from 1000+ to 100...
Gold - Mine it. Generates in temple.
Stone - none...
====================================
Units have been largely addressed in the rps section... I myself find this as the greatest flaw in eeII... Unit spam is easy enough: 3 barracks per territory, 2 stables and workshops, strong rps's will prevent any unit from being too strong... I think this is one of the reasons why eeII is so imbalanced... if any attribute is off by just a little the 1.2 x moddifier just doesnt cut it. just because they do 1.2x damage doesnt mean theyll beat 1.2 to 1 in fact a great example of this is light infantry vs. light arty... light arty "counters" light infantry but in reality light infantry kills light arty the best out of every unit.
====================
Sorry for the long post, please comment.
Reason being is the publisher doesnt like this... theyve shut down other mod projects for naming it as such... Also it gets terriblly confusing if a new ee were to come out...
Ok now to the purpose of this post: Balance
Unless this mod is going to be purely campaign-ish /skinned/sound-modded etc... we probably need a thread.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A few Common problems I think we should address:
--Mass Spamming of Unique Units
--RPS lack of significant counters
--Aweful Learning Curve
--Units build a little too slow
--Rescources gather too fast
--Unit Spam and lack of individual personality in the units
--(Post if you have another Ill edit)
================================
Proposed solutions
*UU spamming (We want to keep thier special attributes, but at the same time solve it.)
--Move Unique Units to temples
--Make Cost/Buildtimes significantly higher than normal units
--Limit Buildings to 1 per unit per territory. (so 3 barracks, 2 stables and workshop)
--Move UU's up one or two epochs
note: Personally I like 1-3.
================================
*RPS structure
note: Personally I am heavily influenced by ee and aoe and will suggest my idea. If there is another please mention and I will add it.
--ee1/aoe fuse: The old unit triangles, but horses and siege are special units...
So: Spear (slow powerhouse...) > sword (fast and weak) > Arrow (ranged, normal speed/health) > Spear
Logic behind it: Arrow kills spear before it reaches the arrow (heavy armour). Spear Kills anything melee (including horses) because of its heavy armour protects it from damage. The swords are quick and can reach the archers before they can kill them.
Siege much like R&F and onagers from aoe devestate massed infantries, of course swords have a good chance of killing siege in staggared formation (thier quickness and being spread out)... Im going for the intuitive approach... fast units can kill slow units who are good at ranged.
Now ballista, historically, is excellent at accuracy while trebuchets/catapults were highly inaccurate.. i.e. even if you look at the models you have scorpions who are shooting bolts and not rocks... ballista = strong highly damaging, catapult = low damage huge area.
Cavalry is uniquely devestating like siege it obliderates infantry, and like siege has a huge weakness in one class, pike.
So you could say: Siege>Infantry, except swords.
and: Cavalry>Infantry, except pikes.
obviously the final rps is heavy Cavalry> Heavy Siege
ballista > heavy cavalry, light horse isnt terribly wonderful against siege at all...
The rps strength i recommend is 3v1. except siege and horses who are ultra powerful 2 to 3 times as powerful.
A note and address on Buildtimes:
--One thing that irritated me immediately was buildtimes... in aoe buildtimes were 15 seconds!! thats well over HALF the current which is 37... So my proposal is Strengthened cavalry (rps = 6-7 to 1)... we make cits and infantry build 15 seconds and leave cavlary and arty. basically infantry is a flood of units... youll face hundreds of these buggers and the only "flood control" is cavalry and siege..
=====================================
*Intuitively
--I think your hit with too much too quickly and dont get a feel for each class. a good solution to this is to give it in segments.
--Infantry introed in Epoch I
--Cavalry introed in Epoch II
--Siege introed in Epoch III
Both aoe and ee had this format (crudely at least), but when your hit with 9 military units immediately its a bit overwhelming... I remember starting simple in the darkage in aoe with one unit and cits etc... then they unlocked the basics, then they broke lose with every major unit, and finally with critical specialty units.
========================
Rescources gather a bit too fast. this is a minor point. the idea is to make tech cost rescources... I think the basic rescources should be halved and include special gathering for special rescources....
Food - patches (faster... .75), infinite patch/farming (normal .5), hunting/fishing (fastest 1) [note: this is rescource per second]
Wood - Obviously there is a lot of wood on the map. but wood isnt too destructable i recommend reducing it from 1000+ to 100...
Gold - Mine it. Generates in temple.
Stone - none...
====================================
Units have been largely addressed in the rps section... I myself find this as the greatest flaw in eeII... Unit spam is easy enough: 3 barracks per territory, 2 stables and workshops, strong rps's will prevent any unit from being too strong... I think this is one of the reasons why eeII is so imbalanced... if any attribute is off by just a little the 1.2 x moddifier just doesnt cut it. just because they do 1.2x damage doesnt mean theyll beat 1.2 to 1 in fact a great example of this is light infantry vs. light arty... light arty "counters" light infantry but in reality light infantry kills light arty the best out of every unit.
====================
Sorry for the long post, please comment.
